Unbiased

Arjun: Most people across the US, and indeed in many industrialized countries feel that the war on drugs has failed and that we should be moving towards decriminalizing or even legalizing drugs. But our guest today says this isn't the right approach. Dr. Kevin Sabet is a former three-time White House Office of National Drug Control policy advisor.
Having been the only person appointed to that office by both a Republican, and that's the George W. Bush administration, and a Democrat, the Obama administration and the Clinton administration. He's a graduate of the University of California, Berkeley, and Oxford University, where he received his doctorate in social policy as a Marshall.
Dr. Sabet has also been the co-founder of the organization. Sam smart approaches to marijuana. His thoughts on marijuana policy are datadriven nuanced. Just the sort of thinker that we love on unbiased. So Dan and I are delighted to welcome Kevin today. Welcome Kevin.

Dr. Kevin Sabet: Thanks Dan. Thanks Arjun.

Arjun: The first question I have for you, Kevin, is you see so many polls that the majority of Americans support the legalization of marijuana, but you say this is a misrepresentation of public sentiment. Why is that?

Dr. Kevin Sabet: I think there are a lot of nuances with the legalization of marijuana. So I think when a lot of people speak about legalization, they really mean the decriminalization of marijuana. And what's the difference? The difference is that with decriminalization, you do not penalize individual use, you also don't make it available at a liquor store or a marijuana shop for commercial sales. So, some people might say, how are you supposed to get it then if it's decriminalized? Well in a lot of countries that do this, you grow your own, you gift, they're that sort of low money transactions, which by the way, most people who get marijuana, get it from friends and family.
They're not buying it from some stranger that they've never met before. That's a big misconception. So, of course, while more and more Americans are comfortable with the legalization, full legalization of marijuana, you know, we've got shops, dispensaries in more than a dozen states, more than two dozen states now, that has become more normalized.
There's no doubt about it. And so people get more comfortable with that, because it's just what they're used to now. But I still think that generally there's a big wedge between those who support legalization and those actually who support decriminalization, but there's no nowhere for them to go on the ballot, right?
The ballot is just yes or no. Do you want to legalize marijuana? These polls, like Gallup, which has shown a steady increase in, lately in the sixties now of, support, ask about legalization only. And they, and even more to complicate this, they ask about te legalization of marijuana use, they actually use the word use. They don't say sales. it's, I think these polls are, and of course, the marijuana industry, by the way, seizes on all of these polls to make it sound like, what they're wanting is inevitable and what everyone else wants. So it's hard to have that nuanced conversation.
I, I would ask people to look at the Emerson poll. Emerson College is consistently ranked in the top 10 in the New York Times in terms of polling credibility. Emerson is one of the few polling outfits I've seen is actually, and we've partnered with them because they're smart about this stuff, they've made a distinction between decriminalization and legalization. When they do that, Americans for legalization falls below 50%.
So who knows what the real number is in terms of what the actual sentiment is. Polling is fraught with a lot of problems generally, but I would ask people to look at the Emerson poll if they're also gonna look at those other polls. Again, I'm not denying that there's been an increase in acceptance of marijuana.
I just think that this idea that 70% now close to in some of these polls, want marijuana sold in their own communities, and they want 99% gummy bears, that's been genetically bred to not resemble the marijuana of the past, sold in kid friendly shapes and sizes and items that they're in the store down the street.
I'm not sure that's seven out of 10 Americans. I'll put one more point on that, which is that in the majority of legalized states, the vast majority of localities have actually voted against having a marijuana store in their own community. People are okay with this theoretically. I look at places like Brookline, Massachusetts, a pretty, tony suburb of Boston part, really part of Boston and, they voted overwhelmingly - it's a very liberal district - they voted overwhelmingly to legalize marijuana in 2016. Yet there's been such a fight from the beginning about whether they should have marijuana stores in that community. And I'm constantly, always getting updates from them and people wanting to fight this.
And so think there's also a disconnect between what legalization is when you're ballot what it means for you, in your own family and community.

Dan: It's interesting you bring that up because I live in Massachusetts and we of course had an initiative that legalized the sale of recreational marijuana here. My wife voted against it for precisely. The reason you mentioned, which is she thought to herself, I don't want a pot shop in my neighborhood. Now I, on other hand actually voted for it, but here's the second part of that, which is I was against the expansion of legalized gambling in Massachusetts and my reasoning behind it was in one instance, I saw the state being able to profit off a preexisting market for vice. And on the other side with gambling, I saw the state creating one. I'm interested in your thoughts on that? What am I missing in my logic?

Dr. Kevin Sabet: They're definitely creating new markets when you legalize marijuana. there are a lot of people that, because it's now legal, they know where to get it. It's more, it's more accessible. You're creating many more users. in fact, since Colorado's legalized, the volume of users of all ages just increased exponentially as well as the amount of marijuana consumed.
again, we have to remember we're talking. Addiction for profit. I really could care less an individual adult smoking a joint in the privacy own home. And they do that, a few times a year or whatever. That's not my beef. beef with is with creating a new corporate entity conglomerate is off of. Heavy use because industry does not make money off occasional users. It doesn't make money off of the adults that you know, that baby boomers that are like using for the first time, cuz their kid moved away from college. that's a really interesting news story gets featured, on the today show and stuff, but that's not what the marijuana industry's concerned about.

Dr. Kevin Sabet: The marijuana industry wants to lifelong customers, just like the tobacco industry. And it's the same logic of the same economics. means they have to push heavy, unhealthy use. And if you look at the average user today of marijuana versus the average user 25 years ago, and this is according to Jonathan Calkins, who's Premier living, economist public policy analyst in the field of drug policy, I would say. And what he's at Carnegie Mellon. And what John says is that if the average user, the typical user 25 years ago to, you think about caffeine, like they consumed, a 20 ounce diet Coke worth of caffeine 20 years ago. that typical user, if you look at caffeine consuming about. Grande Starbucks. Cappuccino's worth of caffeine. that's the difference with THC that we're talking about, and that is by a, by a need for profit, by a need for Byre by an industry that's only out there to make money and they only make money off of heavy use, not occasional use. And. really what I'm very concerned about.
I'm not, I don't want to let me just make it clear. I don't wanna arrest prime marijuana users and throw them in prison. I don't wanna give them a criminal record. Sam with Patrick Kennedy so that we can have idea that, want to, make the punishments, severe, but we also don't want to invite and encourage. use, which is what a commercialized industry does. And was so interesting. I was in that fight in 2016. And was interesting about it was we had mainstream, Democrat and Republican who against it very, I very respectable people, not only Charlie baker, the popular Republican governor, also, the mayor of Boston, and,you had of Massachusetts more, a he pretty liberal Democrat ag. as well as Marty, O'Malley the mayor of Boston. So you had and Republicans come together, but at the end of the day, the money was too strong on the pro side, driven almost exclusively by. People who are gonna make money, if it was legal, that's the incentive.
When you run these initiatives is you have companies that if they invest in the initiatives and spend money to change people's minds and to make them vote, yes, will profit off of that. That's an investment that's I'm gonna invest in Massachusetts in 2015 in the race 2016, then I'm gonna profit off of it five years.
And that's what's happening. Whereas on the no. when we win a ballot initiative, there's no one ma is gonna be making money as a result. I wish we would, but I wish we could fi figure out how to do that. it's just basically, so that's why it's also hard to, be involved in these ballot campaigns.
It's very difficult. and that's been something they Achilles heel and that's been something that the legalizers and the industry have been taking full advantage of.

Arjun: Actually that's a great, segue into talking about the industry of marijuana, which is one of the eye opening parts. When I was reading up on you, Kevin, and listening to some of the other interviews you've given, can you help us understand how. Significant is the marijuana industry compared to something that we know like tobacco or alcohol, because maybe people don't know like how concentrated, how profitable, how large I
it's growing. It's obviously not. the tobacco industry by the way is, larger Microsoft and McDonald's, and I believe Coca-Cola combined. So tells you how big the tobacco industry is. people put the value of the marijuana industry around. to 15 billion in the us.

Dr. Kevin Sabet: I don't know. I think that's too high. I don't think it's that high. I think a lot of,a lot of this is,fake numbers, I'll say cooking the books to get more people invested. I think that's always the game with marijuana. In fact, just wrote an article,

Dan: Yeah

Dr. Kevin Sabet: by Paul Demco, we can check it out about how the marijuana market is just failing.
It's just very difficult to now into it and make money. But you do have bigger, there are some bigger companies that are listed in the stock exchange that started,many years ago are making money and. my big concern is the fact that you now have the tobacco industry like

Dan: That's cool

Dr. Kevin Sabet: that is getting involved in the marijuana industry.
So you have Philip Morris, which is Tre. Now, you have Imperial brands, which is the fourth largest tobacco company in the world. you have. of the major alcohol brands, beer, companies, I should say, getting involved and they're all invested in the marijuana industry one way or another. So my worry is not, again, it's not about the mom and pop, like people like, oh, don't you care about?
Like craft farmers. I'm not talking about that. fear is huge, groups in the tobacco and alcohol industry who, by the way, do not have. History of, furthering the public. Good. Let's be honest. They're not in the, in, they're not in the business of public health and now they are wanting a big piece of the marijuana pie.
And I think if we continue down this road of marijuana legalization, which we're on and we continue on it and the federal, if the federal government ends up embracing it, you're gonna basically. Big tobacco is gonna be the big winner. it's not gonna be these marijuana companies that might exist in once, in Oregon or something, to appeal to the, boomer set for like oils or something. gonna be able to survive. It's gonna

Dan: Yeah

Dr. Kevin Sabet: and alcohol that end up. Them up. I will just say on the federal level, by the way, I've been grateful that on the federal level, we have a democratic president, that is not in favor of legalization. We have that's not in favor of it.
So I don't think this is happening anytime soon, by the way been hearing from the industry, we're gonna have federal legalization any minute. They've been saying that for 15 years, and they've been saying that mainly to get investors, to get involved in their business, it's all about the money.
So they're gonna, the books fake, have fake news, whatever they're gonna do that. Because it's for them. but realistically, I don't see this happening in the next couple of years, even still, again, this industry is gonna continue to put pressure. They have of lobbyists.
Again, if you are using marijuana you like it and you think you're being, anti-establishment like maybe your parents were in the sixties and seventies that is completely flipped. they. of lobbyists in DC that are advocating on their behalf. Thankfully haven't been very on yet, but, I, this is the kind stuff that keeps me at night.

Dan: Yeah. know? it's funny. I was watching a talk of yours and you mentioned how tobacco had been used for millennia, but wasn't as lethal as it is today because the tobacco industry effectively packaged the cigarette, to consumers in a lethal manner. I wonder, let's just say. The marijuana industry does manage to get federal legislation passed.
What do you see that doing to the marijuana market? Do you see it following the same path the tobacco market did way back?

Dr. Kevin Sabet: Oh, AB Cuz that's really how you make money. And I'm glad you brought that up. as you were talking about,tobacco's been used for millennia, it never became, it was not deadly. the way it became deadly about, only about 150 years ago. With the invention of something very new, which is called the cigarette. And that cigarette was invented as a result of the industrial revolution as a result of being able to mass manufacture as a result of better farming techniques as well, not only industrial techniques. And we were able, we were able to put cancer in a stick, which we were not able to do before. And tobacco became deadly. and still is, it kills 400,000 people a year in the United States. And that is enormous. It's the largest global health burden. it's killed more people than any war ever has than any virus ever has. it's incredible. If you look at the public health impact of tobacco now, by the way, one thing tobacco doesn't do that marijuana does do There's a difference, a lot of differences, thing it doesn't do is,it really. Doesn't make anybody psychotic, which marijuana today's marijuana can do. it doesn't mess with your IQ and lower it by eight points, which according to the national academy of sciences Madeline Myers research, which I hope everyone will look into, can it significantly increases the risk of an eight point loss in IQ, which is a huge.
Number by the way, eight points huge on the IQ scale. it doesn't increase the of dropping outta school of lowering your educational scores from demo. So does a lot of terrible things. It kills you through cancer. Then again kills more people than anything else, but, what's interesting about it is it doesn't affect your behavior.
you can dry the car and smoke a C. driving a car and smoking a joint, not a good idea. You're doubling your odds of getting into a car crash. again, according to, the national academy, according to multiple studies. and so there is a difference, but going back to tobacco, it never was deadly until the tobacco industry got ahold of it. they got ahold of it as a result of the, all the things that were happening a hundred so years ago. they started touting it as safe and healthy and celebrity endorsements and doctors saying it's a good idea. Dentists saying, it's a good idea. They had medical cigarettes. Like we have medical marijuana, we had medical cigarettes, medical tobacco, and I know we laugh now, but it was, that was for asthma and for many other things, it's incredible. And marijuana's following the same playbook, something that was relatively innocuous 50 years ago. there were and reports of mania and things happening 50 years ago, but number of people who are. the percentage of people I should say, who are and having psychotic breaks is significant. The number of people who go on to having kinds of mental illness is significant. this isn't like a rare case study anymore. And again, I invite people to look at the new England journal of medicine. Did a review a few years ago with Dr. Nora who's. Head of the national Institute on drug abuse at NIH.
you can look at a lot of different reviews and things that have happened. and in fact, our website, we put a lot of the peer reviewed studies on there and they're just links to them. They're not our interpretation of them. So people can look at that themselves. . And so you do, you have this increased problem.

Dr. Kevin Sabet: And I think you have that of the increase in THC, because of the strength of marijuana today, which is just so different used to be. that is what the marijuana industry is doing. They're making marijuana much more dangerous need to actually,

Dan: Just

Dr. Kevin Sabet: that cuz they make more money that way they get more people to be, addicted.
some of your listeners might be thinking, what do you mean addicted? How can you become addicted to marijuana? can, there's something called cannabis use disorder, which is. Clinical term. And if you look at Deb, Hasson out of New York, at her research, which is, will publish in peer review journals and other people's.

Dr. Kevin Sabet: You're finding that now one in three people who use marijuana in the past year meet the criteria for a cannabis use disorder or addiction. That's 33%. That number has never been so high. and again, it's high because I think you have these genetically altered, brands. Of marijuana. You have these edibles, these cookies, candies, ice creams, concentrates, which we've never had before.
If your listeners or viewers don't know about dabbing, look it up. there are a million YouTube videos that will show you what it is and how to do it. It looks scary if you're not used to it, that you're taking a, you're heating up on a hot knife. A wax or a concentrate that you know, is like this, oftentimes a sticky substance, or it looks even looks like ear wax.
In fact, some of it is called that, and you are combusting it and using it, inhaling it. And, I mean that level of THC that 90% plus is just, like boggling. It's an order of magnitude than what we've seen. And. That's just a, that's a, that is a product the commercialization of marijuana.
That is a pro these products wouldn't have existed. If we didn't legalize marijuana, I want to be very clear. They would not exist without an industry cuz they couldn't be mass produced. They couldn't be mass marketed. I'm not a fan of drug dealers. Obviously I don't, I think they should. they should be punished.
I don't want to have drug dealers around, but they do some really terrible things. But drug, Pablo Escobar and Mexican drug cartels and the Columbian drug cartels never invented these things that are and dangerous kids and adults all across the country with these concentrates these dabs, they were never around before legalization.
That is a direct product. Of this industry and we're letting them have this free pass and I'm still scratching my. As to how that is after we had a hundred years of being duped the tobacco industry who told us that cigarettes were safe, healthy, they were marketed to adults. They were, they didn't cost cancer.
There was no evidence of harm. They told us that for hundred, we believed paying the price and now we're being duped by the exact same industry. Essentially again, I'm just it sometimes feels like I live in an alternative universe that we're not putting two and two together saying maybe we should slow down.
again, I'm not trying to be prohibitionist and this criminalization, the war on drugs. I'm not talking about that. saying maybe we should slow down, understand what we're doing, not be in denial about it. the federal government, it's illegal and, but they're so hands off, they're in total denial about what's going on at the state level.
it's incredible. I can count on my hand, on my one hand, times the word marijuana is uttered federal officials. They want to ignore the issue, because it's like politically like a hot potato and they don't know what to do. And so you basically have this limbo we're. You have this industry running wild, doing whatever they want. I'm just still stretching my head as to how we could have been duped again like that.

Arjun: might be asking too much, Kevin, but, Do we have any evidence that the industry has deliberately made marijuana be more harmful and more addictive? I'm thinking do you remember the movie, the insider of the documentary? Sort the ex tobacco executive who comes out and it's oh my God, we've been lying all along.
I share with you the fact do we have.

Dr. Kevin Sabet: we do. We actually already do. and I'm now I'm gonna do a book plug, but in my, my, I won't my, in my last, my, my latest book have to screen, I interviewed former, officials who regulated marijuana in different states like Colorado. One of 'em, especially who became essentially a whistle blower talking about how. They know, then they knew about the harms. they knew about illegal growers. They knew about all kinds of things going on. And yet it was just swept under the rug. I interviewed other people that were the head of laboratories that were meant to test marijuana contaminants. There's a misnomer that if you with legal marijuana, at least, what's in it.
I hear that a lot. Like least, that it's not
whatever. reality is you don't know anything. These labs are not F FDA approved. are labs acting in the wilderness that are accountable only to the industry. They're getting paid a ton of money have a fake seal of approval saying that these things are, contaminate free mold, free bacteria, free. They aren't, it's a coin, it's a it's Russian rule out. maybe some of them are obviously, but a lot of them aren't and you don't know which ones are and aren't and you, interviewed a person in a lab who said that interviewed, someone who was a dispensary worker, actually in Massachusetts, talked about how they were trained to push people to high THC products that were dangerous, that they might know was dangerous for those because that's what, how they were gonna make more money. Because it's a sales game. they're not, again, they're not doctors. This is not like a medical thing. This is about money. we are beginning to, amass that evidence and I'm I, one thing I'm sure about, I don't know when, but I know it'll happen. we're gonna have a major lawsuit, reckoning, like we did with tobacco. It's gonna happen with marijuana. It's too early. Now have to be legalized on the federal level. Before that happens. to wait 20 to 30 years for the bodies and the people to end things to add up, but it will, they will add up and there will be, I don't know if in my lifetime, I hope it will be.
There will be a reckoning and there'll be a legal reckoning on this stuff. No doubt about it. it's just a matter of time. So I think we're seeing this exact

Dan: you talked a

Dr. Kevin Sabet: Like the potential for marijuana be legalized on the happen all over

Dan: you talked a little bit about the potential for marijuana to be legalized on the federal level. And a question I have for you is, we be better suited to really pursue a heavy, a heavily regulated industry, similar to what you might see with alcohol or what with tobacco, as opposed to just trying to fight it full force?

Arjun: Because I just feel like it, it seems like the momentum is so much in favor. Oh, no. Did we lose 'em again?

Dan: Yeah. Keep talking. If you can hear us, Kevin we'll record this. And then you pop back on we'll,

Arjun: it was this glue together. It's happened once before. Remember I had three different files and I stitched it together. So it'll work.

Dan: yeah but Kevin, if you can hear us finish your thought and then off, pop back on.

Arjun: So strange. One of the things I'll ask the new producer in the coming weeks, Dan is if we should continue using Riverside, if they've got something better that they found more reliable.

Dan: sorry You were quiet

Arjun: Oh, I just saying, I'll ask the new producer once,we get over to an outside. If Riverside is still the best thing we should be using, cuz this is the second time it's happened

Dan: There's another one called clear voice. I think that does a, people use. So that might be option. you finish your thought there? Perfect. Perfect
just gonna do
We're just gonna do it if this

Arjun: You should have seen the screenshot of your face though. When your audio cut out. I.

Dan: every propo activist would love a screenshot of that
Yeah Yeah So think if this keeps happening Kevin as we ask questions finish your thought do the same thing It's irritating And I apologize but I think it's be the best way to get
best um

Arjun: about that. Kevin it's only ever happened once And, we did stitch it together and fixed it by the time we were. Post-production sorry about that. okay so we were covering that Yeah It's a bad idea to really be. Basing our go forward sort of policy and ideas based on tobacco and alcohol, which frankly, at least tobacco rather alcohol has gotten away with just everything that even though it is heavily regulated, the reality is they are way beyond where they should be in terms of the public health impact.
I think that's a really good point. One I'll change gears a little bit. Kevin, one of the things that typically comes up around marijuana legalization, or at least what proponents put forth is they say, look, minority communities are disproportionately impacted by the way that marijuana offenses are treated low level offenses, small time pot dealers or consumers, et cetera, are disproportionately hammered.

Arjun: And one reason why our jails are jam. With people is drug offenses and particularly minorities. If we were to legalize it, boy, that's gonna make a world of different these communities. It's gonna clear out these jails. Most of these guys, they're harmless. They're not gonna do anything. They're not gonna steal.
They're not gonna break or violate. And what, so isn't it a good thing. That's an argument put forward. What do you say to that

Dan: I'm so glad you brought up the mental health side of things because in a I were talking before we hit record. So I'm Boston and Irish, my parents, or my grandparents, I should say, came over here from Ireland. we are no stranger to 12 step programs. I will say that, my relationship with alcohol, was I wouldn't say I ever maybe reached the point of alcoholism or ever reached the point where I sought treatment, but it was problematic.
It was certainly different it was. It was other than my doctor advised let's put it that way. I also discovered later in life I was dealing with some mental health issues. it just turns out when you're Boston, Irish, and you're treating low level depression and anxiety with an alcohol problem, you tend to fit right in. And so that's a very long winded way of leading up to my next question, which is, what are my issues and I'll, let me just actually, in origin, you can, I'll phrase this for easy editing. When I started to deal with my mental health issues, my relationship with alcohol changed. So I haven't sworn off alcohol, My again, you just know in your heart, whether you're doing it right, or you're doing it wrong and it changed fundamentally for the better And so I guess that's a very long winded way of saying that, one of the issues I've always had with the drug debate is it talks a lot about the supply of drugs. It doesn't talk a lot about what creates a demand. It doesn't talk a lot about the mental health issues that make an addict. I'm curious as to your thoughts on that and whether you advocate for any additional reforms or structures that might help make less addicts.

Arjun: dog barking so much in the background. I was like, please go up. that's good. okay. Kevin, I have another question for you. That is a parallel, in Portugal, they decriminalized and I think actually even did they legalize drugs also? I believe give me, give us the details because I don't know all of them, but I think even hard drugs are somewhat decriminalized there and it's been there.
Hope it's nothing serious.

Dan: A just walked, but I think he asked his question about Florida or about Florida yeah. All right. Close. Yeah. Oh, here he comes. Anyway. Yeah. So you can go ahead. Start.

Arjun: if you don't mind, Dan, let me just ask one quick follow up So just to be
Kevin, things like. Exchange programs or safe zones, which, in the United States, I think New York recently was considering and may have actually allowed it now and internationally, I know, I think Switzerland has something similar.
So what's your, what's the data on these sorts of things.

Dan: Okay. Awesome. Do you have time for one more question, Kevin, I know we're at the hour, which is I think a lot of what makes people skeptical. how should I put this? a lot of what people, what makes people more receptive to policies like legalization of marijuana, injection sites, decriminalization, things like that fact that they really view the war on drugs as a failure.
if you look at the parties that really won out on the war, on drugs, it's the prison industry and ironically drugs. I think what I'm wondering is do you have ex are there examples of cities or states doing it right? That you can C.

Arjun: That's really cool by the way. and I know we're outta time. Kevin, but man, there's so many things that you've said I'm actually looking forward to post-production cuz I want to listen to it all again. and that quote from the NAACP guy, I think is the best one I've heard is is all this stuff about making marijuana more accessible?
Is it gonna help you graduate? Or get the job on time earlier. Is it gonna help you get the life you want? tell me, can you credibly really say that? And no one could, No one could say that. I think that's when you should just be like, okay, what are we doing here? What are really doing to this community, to our families?
Call it what it is we're allowing advice to take hold. that was very good. I thought it was excellent.
Oh go on Go on Kevin Sorry Sorry Yeah I

Dan: Yeah, I.